I would like to thank Galaad, Chiasa, slumb, Mirash, Cleglaw, violetcoffee, blueraven, Robv, Raenus and the rest for all our conversations and debates on this site. Unfortunately it has come clear to me that this game does not represent what heroes should be like or about to me personally. I see this game as partly upgraded MMH6 with great deal of the same problems. This game does not take after HoMM 3 or HoMM 5 in my opinion. It is more like hybrid between MMH6 and HoMM4 as I see it.
To devs: I looked forward to see how this series evolves, but after the devolution started by MMH6 I can't believe you would take after it and continue on the same path. Strategy games should be about using your head. Unfortunately you seem to continue on the path that started with MMH6 to casualize/simplify the game hoping to attract bigger masses. I expect variety and diversity from the game this is where you have failed miserably with creature abilities and the "skillwheel".
I know this isn't the game for me and that doesn't seem to be changing so no point in bothering other people by arguing here. With that I will be taking my leave from this site as to not bother those who are still looking forward to this game. I wish you best of luck with production and development of the game!
It has been a pleasure rambo.
you right !!!! al the best to you .
I fear you're right... but I still have some hope. Good luck Rambo !
It's always sad to see people go, but we all have our reasons. Don't hesitate to come back, though :).
Just don't come back only to say you're leaving again....and again....and again...
Damn, that sucks, good people go away ...
You will be deeply missed, as will your words of wisdom.
I'd like to thank you as well, my dear friend. It's a relief to see there still are people with high IQ left. It's a pity we have to wait much more for decent Heroes game. This madness has to end.
He'll be back ;)
Lots of good chats with ya ramb! I'll miss ya
It makes me sad that you are leaving. Although I do not see the progression so hopelessly, I can see that it is often really similar to H6, my least favourite game in the series, but I still hope it can change.
And now that my latest suspension is over I can say thanks to you too Rambo! I recall we had a few disagreements during some votings, but I am 100% behind you regarding gameplay.
Hope to see you over at HC buddy!
жаль , Рамбо из немногих англоязычных я с удовольствием переводила и читала ((
"This is why the primary system does not involve randomness, since it would force the player to deal with random constraints in the balancing of his hero."
Seriously? What kind of joke is this?
These people just never played Heroes. I can't believe it.
This is Heroes for the love of god!
Yes, you'd actually have to *gasp* deal with unexpected events!
The most infuriating part about it is that it's not a joke.
Here is a joke: "We don’t want spellcasting barbarians"
Which is why 2/3 stronghold might heroes (one being barbarian) are focused on warcries (the spells of might heroes)
I like full control of my hero´s perks and abilities
uh... randomness has been part of heroes all the up until heroes 6. I love the idea of going back to those roots of randomness.
I don't know what kind of randomness you guys are after. As explained, there is randomness in the offerings at each level up. That's the kind of randomness H6 lacked.
What other kind of randomness did we have before??
You guys should read "2. On randomness within the skillwheel system:" part again.
I don't know why they even said "This is why the primary system does not involve randomness, since it would force the player to deal with random constraints in the balancing of his hero."
"This is why the primary system does not involve randomness, since it would force the player to deal with random constraints in the balancing of his hero."
So what's next? Ubi will also remove random spells and random neutrals to prevent the players from getting confused. In the name of stragey! And planning!!
#Save The Franchise
It's too hard, so much randomness can't be handled by our tiny brains.
#Save The Franchise
Remove fog of war to and tactical battles. You never know what random stuff appears out of the fog and tactical battles have elements of randomness in damage and who wins initiative ties.
What a lame attempt to explain their flaws!
They have already removed random spells. In H6.
I guess they remove Week effects too? Because Weeks are random and that's a no-no for them.
This article is just pathetic. The audacity! Ok, if you like the skill-system you made, great! I like it too. But this hostility, defensiveness and outright insulting tone is absolutely unacceptable! If you make a product, be prepared to be criticized, FFS! This isn't explaining the system, it's trying to silence those who disagree with you and that is not cool on any level.
Stop treating your potential customers like vermin because you will miss them when they leave.
Actually, I didn't find anything insulting in this article...?
Hostility and insulting tone... I saw that in this council, but not on the dev's side...
I mean, could you point out exact moments? I really can't see it....
but i do not like the skillsystem
Okay, really, where is the hostility in this post? I see none.
I was actually admiring that they expressed themselves in this manner. I wouldn't take it as lightly as they did if people continuously talked crap about me , because I'm not doing as they wish...
for example: "First of all let’s remember that in Heroes V, originally (before modding), there was no skillwheel".
this pretty much translates to "you're wrong and we know better than you!". They're quick to defend themselves from criticism by shifting blame to the community who. it's like saying "yeah, well you're stupid". it's immaturity on a kindergarten level. The shadow council hasn't been great but not surprising with this illusion of power they gave everyone.
I personally also do not find the article that insulting, but I must admit that it makes me feel like they want to say: "We do not give a f*ck what you think and you are not going to change it, so go f*ck yourself, we will do it as WE F*CKING WANT TO." (sorry for all the swear words, no offense against anybody, if somebody minds I am really sorry)
Agreed with Sligneris. I don't see any insult, or any implication of an insult in this article.
@Urakh2012: See, that's only in your head. They're trying to explain their design choices. They should have done this earlier, but better than never.
well i'm sorry for being offended from being told i'm a liar and my opinions don't matter. Can you ever forgive me? /s
"We have a feeling that some people truly believe that more complexity and constraints in a system makes it better, however, we don’t share this belief."
I just can't, it's... no, no, no!
You are butchering the game.
Oh, just incompetence.
New Ubisoft "Philosophy" remove every random aspect of the game!!!
No random damage range for creatures
No random spells in Mage Guilds
No random number of resources for resources piles (actually this was possible in HVI!!!)
No random neutral creatures
No random week effects
No random maps
No random skill system
Thank you for keeping the franchise at such great condition. Now we will never suffer from random stuff and every game will be exactly the same!! Great job, the ultimate strategy game!
Play in Casino, if you like random so much.
Go play chess if you don't like random.
Actually, chess is the most popular strategy game, while casino games are not strategy games at all. =)
Does it means that every strategy game should be the same?
THIS IS A STRATEGY GAME,GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. If you like random events go to a casino, strategy is about planing, shaping thinking seriously what kind of a tree you people fell from?
strategy includes planning for the unexpected, as in randomness. if you can't plan with randomness in mind, you're a terrible strategist.
@Kiryu133, that's why there are still lots of randomness in Heroes 7 (listed by @albe0617). But not so much, that makes winners chosen by random.
not that much randomness, strategists are prepared for the unexpected, what you are saying is, live like bonkers and youll be fine? If I am to study martial arts, should I be prepared to study fencing at the same time while Im at it?
No but you should prepare for the enemy to fight different and adapt. That's what the randomness represents. Also, you can't be sure that the same strike will have the same effect each time. Most strategy games have random aspects, they're just in the background and less pronounced. Just like in RL you can't predict everything, specially in the heat of battle.
For some reason a lot of hardcore "strategy" elitists think things like luck and randomness play no part in strategy, when the essence of strategy is adapting to and utilizing chaos (random elements favorable or otherwise) to your advantage. Its taking what given to you and attempting to formulate a favorable outcome from random elements.
i kinda like this system, but that's unrelated to the fact that heroes has always been about doing what you can with what you have. adapting and re-planning depending on what you obtain. the skill-systems were perfect examples of this. they weren't perfect systems, but they showed so well what the game was about. It was the very core and DNA of Heroes and without randomness it doesn't do this and is not heroes.
It seems way too many people lack reading comprehension skills.
Guys, there is randomness in the game. Read the second item in the article. At each level up, two random skills and two random abilities will be presented for you to select from.
What else are you asking for??
You forgot "No replay ability" which no randomness leads to. I can't understand how they can't see how the random factor is what made Heroes so big and loved. It's not about nostalgia when it comes to the randomness of the series it's about replay ability. I played 1 map of Heroes VI then I was done with the game.
@olof_reaper pretty much 1-2 game is enough to a stop to MMH6, I can't even be asked to try all factions, almost everything is identical apart from reputation system
But I guess it is more due to lack of creatures dwelling, simplified economic systems... I hate main hero system; skill/spells system is boring but bearable ... won't make me replay it, not over a long period of time
>>>First of all, our reference games (HIII, HV) never provided such freedom.
Because a hero with access to all available skills have less freedom then a hero with access only to some of them. Brilliant!
Not to mention that in H7 max hero level is 30, while in H1-4 (read: pre-Ubisoft games) a hero never has max level restrictions (besides campaigns) and in practice (s)he ended around level 30-40.
Now our heroes will have leve, class and also skill restrictions. Nice freedom. :P
>>>We don't want freeform heroes and spellcasting barbarians.
Instead we will get Brabarians who are masters of Defense and Diplomacy. Forget about a Necromacer (Embracer) whoes goals are studing Cycle of Life and Death and who mastered both Light and Dark Magic to fully understand this.
You know what? With this "philosophy" both Kaspar and Archon Belketh can't exist in Heroes 7 as one was a Human and a healer and other was an Angel - both should have known Light Magic.
>>>Yes, a hero class is defined by a fixed skillwheel. It's a set of possible skills, which is a logical design. A Knight can always have offense, he can never have dark magic, that's what defines a knight in Ashan.
Knight will never can have Dark Magic and can't be for example Fallen Paladin (like in Heroes 5) but he can have army ful of Undead? Logical!
tought the same
I'm soooo with you on this one! When I saw the line "A Knight can always have offense, he can never have dark magic, that’s what defines a knight in Ashan." I thought that ok so now the RPG elements of Heroes is dead? (Part 1)
If I want a Knight to know dark magic because let's say I've maybe conquered a Necro town then why the hell shouldn't I be able to do that? Why did they even take away the town conversion from H6 then, if what defines a knight in Ashan is not to be able to learn dark magic then he shouldn't be able to lead Necro troops either... It makes no sense. (Part 2)
I fully agree with you, and funny also how things are now in some specific way in Ashan, while in H5 there were completely opposite.
And still an understatement.
TOTAL COMPLETE AND UTTER MEGA FAIL
TOTAL COMPLETE ULTRA SUPER DUPER MEGA FAIL
So did I get this right? You want to give players freedom by locking them into certain classes, restricting which skills they can learn and if it's till GM or master or lower. To get to expert you need novice ability, to get master you need novice + expert, to get GM you need novice + expert + master ability? Then master actually gives zero choice to you and for example in luck it means magic ability for might hero... And 2nd level has only single magic related ability... What freedom?!?!
You essentially said the system is actually even worse than I thought because I thought I could get GM by getting for example novice + expert + expert if you have master level unlocked... I can't believe you actually managed to make it worse -.-
Ubi master of destruction and ruin.
Ubisoft's target audience - CONTROL FREAKS! No randomness allowed.
I can't believe in such dumbness WTF
How can they call classic heroes formula as a "subjective opinion"?
It is flawed according to their concept, haha :P
There are a lot of wrong assumptions about past games in that article.
I got strong impression those guys have no clue what is HOMM3/5 about.
Reason they invented Ashana was cuz they didnt had any clue about previous games and they didnt want to mess up lore.
The thing you are making doesn't look like HOMM. Randomness is viewed as some kind of a flaw, the skill system doesn't make sense.
The voice of the community is ignored. This is unfortunate.
ложись спать Семпай :)
доброй ночи :)
bye-bye баю бай )
Current results of the skill system survey (see below):
71.43% prefer the skill system of Heroes V
28.57% prefer the skill system of Heroes VI
So UBI's Lead Game Designer who personally admitted last year here at the council that he prefers a non-random system as in HVI thinks that "Complainers are more vocal but our data indicates that this is a topic where the community is divided."
Time to gather some data, right? Here you go, and please share: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GQ5MPBC
I'll repeat. Heroes 7's system isn't Heroes 6's.
@Shukfir: I never stated it was identical. But there is almost universal agreement that the Heroes 7VII skill system is much closer to what Heroes VI had compared to the Heroes V version. Just bending the skill trees of Heroes VI into a wheel shape does not make it a different system. It's linear, straightforward, has no specific prerequisites, and no special sub-skills for different classes, ergo very similar in philosophy to Heroes VI.
Since a lot of new votes have come in during the last hour, I'll take the liberty to briefly update the numbers:
76.32% prefer the skill system of Heroes V
23.68% prefer the skill system of Heroes VI
"But there is almost universal agreement that the Heroes 7VII skill system is much closer to what Heroes VI had compared to the Heroes V version."
-There is no way this claim is supportable. You simply can't know this. Because none of us has used the new skill system, we can only assume and choose to believe the developers or not. Many assume the worst. Wisdom dictates a wait and see approach.
@broui: While I agree that I haven't played H7 yet, I do not see how we did not get more than enough information on how things are going to work with the new system to make the claim.
Actually I think that I perfectly understand how it is going to play out, since it is - by design - very straightforward. For example we know for a fact that there won't be specific prerequisites, interlinkages, different sub-skills. There is not much assuming in that since they laid out the mechanics in detail.
79.17% prefer the skill system of Heroes V
20.83% prefer the skill system of Heroes VI
I am starting to wonder what had happened if Ubi had actually taken the opportunity to ask this question officially within the entire "Shadow Council" in order to get their data straight..
UBI should to make a VOTE to ask this question officially ...
P.S.:could you share alink to follow the results?
81.67% prefer the skill system of Heroes V
18.33% prefer the skill system of Heroes VI
Heroes noobs and random skill haters are like this:
"My hero started with basic wisdom and basic sorcery. I'm gonna try and get air, fire, earth and water magic skills."
Level up: Advanced Wisdom or Fire Magic. Noob = "I want fire magic but I'll get it later. Advanced Wisdom!"
Level up: Expert Wisdom or Water Magic. Noob = "I want water magic but I'll get it later. Expert Wisdom!"
Level up: Advanced Sorcery or Earth Magic. Noob = "I want earth magic but I'll get it later. Advanced Sorcery!"
Level up: Expert Sorcery or Air Magic. Noob = "Oh I want air magic but I'll get it later. Expert Sorcery!"
Level up: Navigation or Eagle Eye. Noob = "Oh this is CRAP! The random system is so stupid and unfair. I should be able to pick what skills I want. I never got the chance for the skills I wanted. Now I'm stuck with a skill I don't want and it's totally not my fault at all! Waaaaaaaah!"
very clever and very true .........
That about sums it up how I see a lot of People/noobs crying about random skills being too Hard for them.
agreed, I don't mind randomness, but while I played with it I don't seemed to have any problem, you just pick the basic skill you want when possible and level others if your luck is poor
It really is that easy. Get all the skills you want as basic and then you're set. Sometimes you won't ever get the last one you want but that's just part of the game.
Agreed, this seems to be what's going on. They just don't get how to manipulate the system to get what they want.
More like "I want to build a magic hero"
Level-up: Attack or Leadership. Well shit, I don't want this crap
Apart from the general dissatisfaction with the skill system, it's really pitiful to see how you argue to defend it:
"First of all let’s remember that in Heroes V, originally (before modding), there was no skillwheel."
Really? I mean, really? So not only do you recognize that skillwheel should have been in H5, you actually use the fact that it was not included as an argument for the new system? Like, because the old system had flaws, we should also make flaws in the new system, or what?
That means, judge Heroes 7 only after a couple of expansions and mods.
If they will come out...
We'll only get expansions if the game does well originally and has a lot of fan support. Without that, many will just move on and we'll never see anything new for the game. Good luck getting new factions added.
" That means, judge Heroes 7 only after a couple of expansions and mods. "
Or it means we will deliver a shit system and let the gamers and modders fix our own shortcomings. HV is available to them to learn from. If they choose, instead, to draw on HVI predominantly, it is their funeral.
Am i the only one who gets the feeling like you've just been told "we know better what's fun"?
"We have a feeling that some people truly believe that more complexity and constraints in a system makes it better, however, we don’t share this belief"...kinda says it all really
Without that statement the article would have gone a lot smoother. Yes they are building this differently that some of us may want which I can accept to an extent but that statement really set me off.
I just think if they're claiming H3 and H5 as their "reference games" then they should use the major features in them, such as weighted random skills and being able to select skills from the entire pool (bar H5 orcs). Instead they say one thing and do another.
Yes ive got that feeling too. There was also some article with Erwan complaining about the fanbase, that we dont like anything new and progressing.
@Matoob Do you have a source for that article? I really can't believe he would complain about the fanbase in an article that seems crazy.
dkraft: Here it is: http://www.pcgamesn.com/heroes-of-might-magic-vii/heroes-of-might-magic-7-is-a-slave-to-its-conservative-fans
Yeah, it's hard to believe someone working for a huge gaming company could be that unprofessional, but that's direct quotes.
wow that article is rough... pretty much :
We want to make this game different and are confused as to why long term fans of the game don't want to play our different game
You are not alone.