its really impossible to discuss topic related things, also its very hard to follow previous ones. flood, trolling, spamming all over the place. please some moderation and harsh punishment for ruining this place.
Is it Lovato?
Yeah i agree it looks like the youtube comment section. Wich is a shame. A rather have good convo's, discussion and talk about ideas.
yep, 2k+ comments and 90% spam,
Listen to us, follow our ideas and we will love (and buy) this game.
Ignore our ideas, do everything in the cheapest way and we will not like (and buy) this game so much.
It is only up to you, but please, choose carefully.
It is neccessary to let us choose main heroes classes, add several abilities to UNITA (especially necropolis ones).
Unfortunately, I do not believe in the total rework of skillwheel, but you should at least a bit improve it.
This is great way to make money, make your customers to beg for changeing game to our liking so we can spent our money to buy their product.
UbiLimbic: There is one thing I want to tell you guys. We are here because we want this game to be very good. We are angry because the SkillWheel is broken for now. We are here to show you what needs to be fixed to make this game a success and also a big flow of money for you. WE TRY TO HELP YOU. This is a Red light and you should really notice it now until it's too late...AGAIN.
There hasn't been a middle place in the development of the game, it's either "too soon" or "too late", because of that in the end, our voices have been quite meaningless.
Erwan : "The game comes out in 2015, the exact date depends on the interaction of fans with the developers, if they ask for specific feature it may take longer time to do them so ... it´s really open."
Limbic : "Nothing will be changed."
Are they really challenging the authority of Erwan the Almighty? HEATHENS! Burn them!
Because some fans do not understand, that too great changes are imposible because of time, money and whole game concept, where changing 1 thing will affect many other.
Not about understanding. This is a very VERY important aspect of the game that should have been introduced much earlier (when they could have made changes on it) and instead they're just throwing it at us near the end of development and we just have to like it or leave. Its frustrating for many, me included.
@Slumb exactly! I was asking them to open the skill-system back when sylvan votes were topic to at least give rough sketch of how it will work... And we know how much game-play articles we got... At this point this feels very purposeful just so fans won't get a say in the important things -.-
The worst think on all this is that several weeks ago it was too soon to talk about skills.
Now it is too late to change anything. :(
Also with this skill system I would realy like to see how they implement the randomnes.
If that is like in H5 than I do not realy see a point of it witth you such a limited pool of choices....
I think most of us knew this going to happen, they were going to show us the skillwheel so late that the chances of changes were going to be almost nule. That's our sad reality.
Well, as one said, this site was first designed to take part in votes, nothing more to it. So it is either the devs that mistold us that we can change aspect of the game or we may have misread that. Either way, it is displeasing to know we have these game feature articles late in development.
They told us to make our voice count... during Fortress vs Sylvan vote ^-^
Meaning of that phrase has changed since, both to us and to the devs. I wouldn't said it's a bad thing, but it's definitely a change neither side was really prepared for...
I too believe they held off on important things just so that they have an excuse to not take fan input. They flooded with minor features to give the illusion of involvement but on big things that affect everything, like the skill wheel which they obviously had built already because of class layout, they delay long enough that it becomes set in stone just so they don't have to actually use any suggestions.
Seems like Paranoia's R&D department.
I wonder why people are so conservative at moments like these. Wanting to go back to the good old times of H3. Correct, the devs themselves said they were going back to the roots, but should they do that as strict as some would wish? In H3, a hero could have a snowload of spells in an end-game situation. Visiting Magic Guilds, Shrines, picking up scrolls etc. And how many of the Air Magic spells did YOU actually use in combat? How many did you have access to? Precision, Haste, Lightning Bolt.
We now have but a limited number, like in H6 where the amount of Air Spells wasn't that broad either. Call it progress, call it different. Look at the title of this game; Might and Magic Heroes VII, not III. It means it is something else than the old roots, even though they would want to back to them. You can't expect it all to be just as it used to be. And why should it? The amount of Air Magic is not much, but who knows what a Magic hero can be capable of in mid- to endgame situations.
Haste is now Prime, but I can imagine it belongs to Air Magic as well. I know a Magic hero should have lots of spells to choose from, but I'd rather have a few very useful ones than a whole bunch of spells that will make little to no difference in dire situations. Besides, lots of spells only drains the mana, and that happens in H6 too. If I am engaged in a long-term combat, my heroes spend more mana than Europe does to save Greece again....
Let's just pretend H6 never happened, and this game would be 6 instead. Would your opinion still be the same regarding the skillwheel? Because it is 6 that shapes the minds of those who are against this. It's because people know 6 that there is a general sense of dissatisfaction regarding the skill system and mechanics. It's just an episode in a long franchise that has time and again proven to be strong and lasting.
I stated earlier that I miss some good ones from H6, like Storm Arrows and Grounded. Yet I believe that what we have here can still be helpful in a combat. It's not like Air Magic is alone in the game, that we will have some sort of Heroes of Air and Magic VII. I think it is perfectly possible to build a hero around several schools and make him/her a very decent spellcaster. H6 made that quite easy, it is somewhat restricted now (right?). Less to choose from, but that spawns a wise choice too.
I am sorry but who is saying this game should be the same as the older Heroes games? Nobody. But we are saying they should take things from previous games and improve it. But right now it almost looks like they only do this with things from H6, or atleast that is what i see. And somehow it is hard to not unsee this (if you want to call it like that). I am not saying they shouldn't take things from H6, but since it is seen as a bad game, i would like them to stay away from it as much as possible.
" like Storm Arrows and Grounded".
I mean Storm Winds, my bad.
@RobvD84: It's because people are looking back, a lot actually. Back to when the days were brighter and the night short. By looking back, people see things that once were, and have seized to be in 6 and apparently in 7. They call for the return of ideas, mechanics and skills. Now I don't blame them for that, in fact, why shouldn't they ask for it? It's just that sometimes one should look ahead, into the future. This is a different world, different developer (H5 excluded of course).
Yes and that is never bad, because we can learn from it. Learn from the mistakes and avoid them. Make something new from the rubles of the old castles, so to speak. But right now i think they are making same mistakes. But ofcourse this is my opinion, and that is yours.
You know the saying, "vroeger was alles beter", I don't know if that sentence has the same power in English. "Back in the old days everything was better." I don't deny the power of H3 and 5, but still...one could consider H6 the pothole in the road, H7 the road worker, and the future a smoother, safe road where there is much traffic.
If it comes from H3 or H6 doesn't matter. What is important is to know if it will be ok. I really hope devs will explain how it will work with 7 magic school and only 2 or 3 magic ability per hero (so many spells in your guild that you won't be able to learn)...
I agree so much with you Marble!So,so much!100%!:)
@Najakir: There is something I wonder...if a hero has Water Magic listed among the three 'specialties', does that mean he/she can only go all-in with this school and not learn other things?
@LightAvatar: LOL I knew you'd see that xD
Greece. Economy. Moneyz. Euro-countries paying billions and more and not a snow is happening, and we prolly won't see it back ever again :P. But that's not a thing to discuss here, I just needed an example to clarify my story, and I had to think about that. Sorry xD.
I don't understand xhat's you saying. All heroes have 10 skills, so a water-magic hero can learn 9 other skills.
What I mean is: you say there are 7 schools, hero's have one or two Magic skills (for instance Water and Air). They will learn that, but are unable to learn the other schools which might be in the Magic Guilds. I wonder, then, is a hero not able to learn something from a different school? Light, for instance? Not necessarily at top-level, but only novice? That would make it easier for this hero to obtain more spells in each guild.
I absolutely totally agree with everything you said. Although I wouldn't mind having an extra spell in each level from unskilled to master. There should also be a few universal spells like for example a magic bolt. The skill system so far has not been bad at all, and I actually like it. That said, there is always room for improvement.
Yes they can learn all spells of level 1 guild.
But no, if they haven't the skill they can't be novice in it !
That's why I fear for this skill system. You can find on my profil a link with some calculation, which show that heroes will have very few spells in their book...
Hahaha now we have something fresh in politics section of the SC xD Some debates aside Rissian-Ukrainian conflict lol
Go on, Lighty ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Enjoy few more days, because Monday is coming and Moshi-Moshi will be very, very busy! I'll help her with finding your comments don't worry! Use this 2 days as you wish, your end is finally coming!
>And how many of the Air Magic spells did YOU actually use in combat?
haste, disrupting ray, fortune, lightning-bolt, precision, air shield, protection form air, hypnotize, chain lightning, counterstrike, magic mirror, summon air elemental, Air Magic in h3 is awesome, and don't forget fly and dimension door on the adventure map
@Cleglaw, LMAO of the description.
>titanium-plated nutsack of destruction
I know Cemal,cleglaw.I visited his home in kavala and i have seen his statue.My boyfriens likes him too and wanted so much to go there.Cemal has a good hoose ;)
Yes, an interesting debate, it is nice to read \sarcasm\
Okay, I think it is safe to say that the original point I'm trying to make has been derailed a bit. Let's get back to what I was trying to say here: looking forward to the future of Heroes, not being stuck in the past. People are stuck in that past, seeing the glory of what was and projecting that on everything that is yet to come. All glory is fleeting! I mean, the developers are so different from each other, it creates a totally new world and new ideas.
Which doesn't mean they can't take ideas from their predecessors, but everyone has his/her own agenda in these things. I love H6, which is quite obvious by now, but I too realize the magic system is a bit easy-going. This skillwheel, despite possible flaws, provides us once again with a more elaborate way of learning skills instead of just spending points like it's nothing. Heroes need specific skills to be able to learn powerful Air Spells instead of just being level 10 or 15.
I would call that at least a hint of progress if I were to take sides with those who are not pleased with the current system. You can say that with our feedback, they might consider to take this to a further level in the future. And perhaps there will be a new developer, who will again take it in a whole different direction. I know it's hard not to look back, it's so tempting to take examples from the past and put them in the present. Past is past, Ashan is not Enroth. Ubi is not JVC.
@Marblethrone I rarely read this forum.I love heroes 3 -4-5-6.They are all interesting in their own way.I like your attitude, I agree.\sorry my bad english\
"instead of just being level 10 or 15."
5 or 15*
It's a new generation. A new cast and crew, a new story, a new season. The name Heroes of Might and Magic is what ties it together because it just happens to be one franchise. But to say 'this is not an HoMM game' is a bit folly. It IS a game, it says so in the title. The James Bond-franchise has seen quite some actors who play the same role already. Not to mention Doctor Who. HoMM is the same. Same name, same role, different person etc.
Huh, and here I was thinking you were talking about amount of spells... ;)
It's both, really. Air Magic in particular, 'Looking Back or Forward' in general. Above I lay stress on the Air Magic part, below it's more about the second thing.
On the first part I can't really agree with you - I believe having more spells would be better (I that Prime may have more than 8, simply because in H6 it had more as well, but other schools will be 'balanced'. Sigh...). Even if some of them see less use they are still there - it's up to ME, it's MY choice to use them or not. Instead we are getting restricted to few 'most useful', whish is also debatable.
I HATE restrictions. Especially sensless ones.
On second part - let people stay stuck in the past if they really are, if they wish so (I'm stuck in the past myself. I mean, come on! How long will I be lvl 22!?). There's nothing bad in this. In time they will discover this was game never meant for them (despite what the devs had said...).
I also enjoyed H6 (love is way too strong a word in my case) and yet I do consider it a failure of a Heroes game and don't like the general direction the franchise is heading.
ptrsc : You forget one thing. In previous heroes, having more spell give you more diversity becaus one skill allow you to learn all of them...
Now your magic guil will provide you 16 spells... but you won't be able to learn most of them becaus you don't have the skill.
There is pratically the same number of spell thant in previous heroes. The only thing that change is that you can learn only a small part of your guild...
I am sorry you can't compare this game with James Bond and Dr. Who. Especially not when those 2 have stayed true to thier origin. Can't say the same about H7 at this point. Unless they change the skillwheel from non-random to random. It really should have been the other way around. Creating a skillwheel witn random in mind and then having the option to go non-random. I think that way was also much easier to implement. Now they have to find a way tom make random good.
That is why they should bring a skill like wisdom back but different. I already made a post about it. I really think it is bad design to have to learn 7(x3=21) skills te learn all spells. And i still don't get why we need so many magic schools. I mean the timeline for H7 is much closer to H5. Unless they are going to tell us there is a reason for that.
You are right of course, these are just two sides of the same coin. Since the devs decided to go with this mechanic for Magic skills they should make more spells in each school. Coz now 3 skillpoints spent in Magic school give acces to five spells. It wouldn't be THAT bad if there were more spells.
Of course Wisdom-based system still worked better, IMO.
You do realize that H3 is exactly as much of a series's origin as H4 or H6, right?
Maybe they should look for inspiration in H1, lol. I mean, that was the series's origin, after all.
h3 we got "just" 4 schools of spell, but it was ok, like Elfgou wrote it was interestin and variable
in h4 we got 5 of them, and a tons of spells with some refreshing aspects
and now skill not allow you to learn all of them, beacuse you have 30 skillpoints and 7 spellschools, so in the best option your hero may have 3 schools and no thes skill!
so devs should look to other parts than h6 of hmm, to get some inspiration
as i know it's 7x(3+3)=42
and look! a magic hero always had a chance to learn all the magic schools!
(exept h6), so i think it is an importamt part of hmm as mageguilds, fractions, townbuilding, 7res, hero leveling, rmg...and so on
@Rob: H5 has five schools of magic: Adventure, Destructive, Light, Dark and Summoning. Six if you include Rune Magic. If people think that a spell like Haste would best be an Air Magic spell, they don't get that in H5 because the school of Air isn't even there. Haste is considered a Light spell instead. If you want to search for continuity stuff there is a lot more to worry about (Necro town for instance).
I always wanted to have demons able to cast 'Mass Haste' or 'Righteous Might' in Heroes V
Developing Light Magic on demons would ruin most of my skill development paths.
Adventure do not needs skill!
Runemagic is a fraction skill like Metamagic.
And haste would be in a fine place at ligth/air or chaos,(5,3,4) but we do not lak of prime
I too think a Magic hero should have many spells to choose from, but as I've learned in H6 duels, relying on magic only is not a good strategy. Sure, you can deal lots of damage, buff units or debuff enemy units etc, but victory requires more skills and abilities. So if the amount of spells is little but very useful, I'd rather have that than a long range of spells that simply can't make a difference in long-term combat. Personal preferences, can't really argue with yours :P.
It may surely be hard, if not impossible, to learn all spells, but there is the option to learn something. I think, but I can't be sure of this until I really try it for myself, that this is where the player needs to choose. Which path to take, which skills to improve, etc. Can you build your hero to have full mastery in Air Magic and relative underdeveloped skills in other schools? You could do that and add other skills/abilities to complete the hero, but I'm not sure if this'll work that way.
@Sligneris: I wouldn't consider H6 as part of the origin. Origin has to do with how it all began, so H1 and H2 fit that profile more than 3. However, one could consider H5 as being the origin of the current path the franchise is on, for that is when Ashan was introduced. Still, every game brought with it more changes and different things, so it may be hard to actually draw a line somewhere. Basically every installment brought something new and is therefore part of the whole system.
this way you can build a good might hero, but you can't build a good magicone :(
You may be right there, but I don't know...Warcries are not available for Magic Heroes, so it would be only fair if Might heroes didn't have as much access to spells and related abilities as Magic Heroes do. That way you can build a Magic Hero around the mastery of one class and perhaps expertise around another, including additional skills.
the problem is Warcries grant access to all the basic spells wothout manacost, so i think it will be inbalancing... might>magic , you must spend +++skillpoint to collect that spells from magicschools
I believe you are doing because you sincerely believe this is the best. But i ask you to truly look at what this game truly is about again because modern thinking does not apply to this and it is reducing your very player base -> sales...
So the best thing to do is revert the wheel and make a truly good game like XCOM enemy unknown instead of reducing your spending.
Very well put. +1 from me. I however feel that he doesnt give much sh.t about what we think. He delegated moderators to read through this forum to give him reports about what people think. If he was interested he would participate in this forum himself more than anyone else.
Yeah i want more chit chat with them.
So basically, the abilities in the magic skills are either a) Mass spells, or b) +X power or -X cost of spells. Or in other words, what we get here is H6 skill system over again? Great job, because we loved that one so much!
Limbic need to start listening to the community regarding the skill wheel unless they are OK with the reality that most HOMM corefans will not play or support H7. I'm just repeating what everybody else wants. Use H5 skill wheel as blueprint and REMAKE IT!
Exactly, people loved it ten years ago, and will still love it nowadays, TotE is still being modded, and that is proof of successful mechanics. Of course there were flaws, and you are not correcting any of them by changing the whole thing(!).
They need to start listen to the community at all. The councillors have lot to say to them. If they'll pay attention to this it'll be only way to save game.
I guess my big question about H7 at this point is this.
Why did you open this council?
That's it, I used to be very active here but now I'm not. This is simply because I believe that we aren't listened to outside of votes unless we spam, which is now removed. It seems that you call this a council but it isn't. A council has power and can make decisions and a degree of maturity is expected. But it feels like that if we don't whine like little kids, we get ignored.
Is this a council or not?
This is the shadow council:
yeah the only kind of feedback they responded to was #gurs spam and spiderpolis rage that was far from polite.. It's quite sad actually
This blog was originally supposed to be the platform for the votes - unfortunately, I don't think we were promised anything else.
I feel like the whole Council thing was rather meant as an additional flavor to the official MMH7 blog and its votings, more than anything else.
I know that's the stated purpose of it, but that's not the practical purpose, not anymore at least. I want to know why they gave that stated purpose if practically that's not what we do.
I suppose more important still is why keep it open?
They've already stated no changes will be made, even though they could. So what is the purpose of keeping it open if what it was built to be is no longer useful or true?
"Shadow Council articles will be splitted between the two tones:
- Factual tone for all development related information
- Role play tone for all universe and story articles."
You know, that role play would be a fun thing, but... I think they gave their fans a bit too much credit if they thought they would go along with it lol.
@Mirash, u knew that Lighty is a Ubi-project, right?
@Niwroc This is not the Council, I guess.
I do not believe in voting, there are many fake accounts
Even if in theory the purpose of this 'council' wasn't influencing development in any way they should take a hint if there is so much criticism on something they presented. It's UbiLimbic's business to make a game worth buying not ours, besides so much rage in comments sections is bad for marketing :D
it \ George Avatar\ works 100% on the Ubisoft for advertising purposes)
That would explain why he never gets banned, lol.
He wrote screenplays for heroes 7)))
Nah, the reason why he never gets banned is because he's the council's court jester.
Glowworm -LightAvatarX writes scripts for the H 7 ))
Why you ask? It's simply a promotional marketing strategy.
It's not a question of should we the devs do something about the skillwheel or not, if you truly want a successful game then you shouldn't even ask yourselves that.
Improving the skillwheel must happen and should be your top priority, delay the release date if necessary.
Everyone: TS are horrible! Unites are coppy-pasted! The "skillwheel" is just wrong as it is!
Devs: Sorry guys,but funny animations and collector's edition card game were more important feathers..
As a Customer Service Manager for over 25 years, playing from the first Heroes of M&M and on...
This section is just marketing.. and not working as such either.
When a customer gives feedback, a good company should act upon it.
Please rebrand this section as a "Q&A section for new gamers".
Well, the fan input was originally meant to be votings alone. It's fans who expected more.
Well Sligneris; If fans expect more the choice is simple:
- Give the customer what it wants, but name it correctly, or
- Don't open the box labelled "Pandora".
@Slig: But they decided to keep the blog live after that, including us in a lot more. It's only obvious that it is just that which made fans want stuff. They have the chance to speak up, so they use that chance.
Well, you are both right in this case - this place is rather poorly managed and it seems that the decision to involve the fanbase was not thought out very well. It's certainly not a bad idea, but it is rather badly executed.
I would like to add;
PDCA, Plan, Do, Check, Act is advised for process improvement
PPPPPPP: Proper PreParation Prevents PissPoor Performance
>>There is no possibility to change a McDonalds into a Burger King, even if you'd love a Burger King way more than a McDonalds. And then there are still the people, which prefer Taco Bell or KFC. (c) Limbic-Jaelle chan.
See...the problem actually is that Heroes were like fancy restaurant before: place where vegans can order delicious vegetables salad and non-vegans could eat a juicy steak. And on some reason you've decided to turn it into fastfood for just one segment of people who can eat it.
This is a metaphor that does have a meaning, but I feel that while Jaelle mentioned that they cannot change everything, you just talk about your preferences...
It's impossible to cater to everyone's needs becaus preferences vary enormously. However, that statement that nothing is going to change anymore is really out of place. They should have given us info about the Wheel etc earlier on.
yes , that all we want , early info about prepared changes , etc , so we can complain or be happy ....
>does have a meaning
So as your comment. Try to find an irony in these words since I used Jaelle's fast-food example as literal reference.
Add 1 more spell per level:
unskilled: Grounded (selected enemy flier cannot fly for x turns
expert: Air shield (reduces damage from range attacks)
master: Summon air elemental
Seriously not grounded. It was so OP spell when you used it on some angels and such on h6. I still remember the thunderstaff that cast it at beginning of battle, you could just run around with 1 core unit and kill dozen angels with hero, all it took was time since fliers were basically immobilized.
i liked your suggestions and 1 more spell thing. but i guess there is a balance between might and magic trying to be set in. maybe giving more spells will outnumber the warfare skills might heroes have.
not OP, do not forget warcries do not have manacost!
H6 had a lot of OP spells/warcries. Do you really think level 1 hero with thunderstaff and dozen crossbowmen should win dozen angels? To me that always felt a bit messed up personally. In Pvp grounded wasn't OP, but against neutrals it was insane spell. And since when did you run out of mana in h6? It was practically impossible since you had cooldown on spells so you used 4 spells basically in same order.
So grounded is too op? then change it to slow/mass slow
This council is evidently one BIG GIMMICK!
show-attraction "Council of Shadows" ))
Well, the very moment I saw this I hoped for some cool role-play like atmosphere, soo... ^-^;
That was the first impression I actually got lol.
@Sligneris: I think that role-playing part has been reduced to the Biography section. At least that's where I put my fictional story.
Actually, I think it was also supposed to be like this in the lore and story articles, like the Tales of the Ten Years War... but we're getting too few of these.
@Sligneris )) This role-playing game: heroes 6 against heroes 5 ))
Heroes against crap lol
Seriously be responsible, close the comments section, open the community section, create proper forum lol it's not hard
At this point, I think they'll find a excuse and close every form of communication to avoid more negative feedback.
A proper forum requires a proper moderation, which Ubi doesn't seem capable of providing at the time... Still, upvoted for the intent.
A proper forum is actually WAY easier to moderate lol
Lol this is crazy, I'm just asking for a proper place for fans to share their opinions, is it really that hard?
What Heroes Community?
The one over there. Where is more law than here ever was.
Well here is complete anarchy lol but yeah, they should just make something like the official ubisoft forums in example, but for the Shadow Council. Could be done very fast if there was some good will, which they obviously lack lol
You know, the moderation should be here from the start. As for the forum, it should've been opened up the moment Fortress vs Sylvan vote ended.
When you look at this blog's first posts, it gives you this impression that it's a small site that will eventually grow in order to better receive its community. But it didn't grow at all - it feels like it stagnated.
I am constantly talk about it, but my comments removed)))
I fail to see any justification at this current skill system: it's more like an interactive cartoon where you have to click once in a while to get the cartoon going instead of a game where you can actually choose which way to develop your hero.
Dear Ubisoft team do not under estimate the importance of the skill system, the game will either live or die with it. In my opinion the game play and skill system should be developed on the H5 engine. Just add more skills and variation.
I don't really know how skill system worked on h5, but I see that this, current system, is flawed. U would like to see more options in middle of wheel. If you want the game to shine make the game as complex as possible as wide in mechanics/game expierence as possible. I can say that people doesn't really enjoy simplicity anymore.
This skillwheel feels so static, stiff, restricted, no air to breathe. And it should be dynamic, interactive, varied and diverse.
Andrius: for me the idea of having abilities in the skills was very welcome, the number of skills per hero was too low in H5 but at least it made it more difficult, which I like. I agree that the game should be complex and have different paths in the skill tree which lead to different destinations, instead of few paths which all lead to same destination.
On the other hand H3 is so simple to learn you can have a game with basically anyone. Only if the simplicity and complexity could be combined
I am sure, they will underestimate the skillsystem because it is complicated to balance everything and they can earn a lot of money without doing it.