24
BeYo_OnD The Ancient
April 09, 2015 19:53:41

It was quite time. The Skillwheel is a crucial part of the game, one that makes me worry a lot. From what I got to play at the Community Event in Paris, this system resembles very much the skill system of Heroes 6, just that it's in the form of a wheel. It is simpler and less rewarding than that of Heroes 5,

I've constructed an alternative within their frame of mind (with classes and all) and sent it to them as feedback.
- http://i.imgur.com/PpKuDWq.jpg

I hope things can still be changed.

26
rodaff The Dark
April 09, 2015 20:20:51

That's how a skillwheel should look like.

19
Shukfir The Magnificient
April 09, 2015 20:44:34

Impossible on medium resolution monitors. Icons will be too small.

23
Matooob 
April 10, 2015 00:10:49

Thats what i expect from Heroes skills, since H5

19
B_WE 
April 10, 2015 00:38:06

@BeYo_OnD:
Thank you for sharing. I hope your efforts will be rewarded! This is really a good job!!

17
tiim2011 The Guardian
April 10, 2015 02:46:19

@BeYo_OnD

They should get inspired from you shared with us. Their version looks far too simple and not so random as expected

11
guest-Q2C5DSj5 The Furious
April 10, 2015 06:27:27

Thanks, brother. You speak my mind. Your skill wheel is nearly perfect. We really need a giant skill wheel used for all heroes. Special abilities are given depending on a combination of racial skills, might skills, magic skills or neutral skills just like that. From there, the player made choice whether the hero is might or magic, offensive or defensive. Replay value is endless. This is what have made the Heroes 5 Skill Wheel famous.

25
Antalyan The Ancient
April 10, 2015 09:53:07

New skill system is a good idea. Even I liked the Heroes V one a lot, sometimes, things need to be changed to make a brend new game.

14
Luhorox 
April 10, 2015 11:45:18

Do you mean that Grandmaster Abilities would be determined by the combos of chosen skills?

IE: There would be a different Grandmaster Ability aviable to those who choose Water Magic + Prime Magic and a different one for those who choose Water Magic + Defense?

If so, I'm all up for something like this.

22
Articun The Wanderer
April 10, 2015 15:07:39

@BeYo_OnD
Firstly, i admire your resolve to come up with this... it looks complicated 0.0
But, why do some skills start off with 4 and some with 5 skills/abilities?
How does such a model ensure a unique build for each hero class and also offer customization as you restrict various skills to have prerequisites, so many players will choose them when they come available (maybe forcing a specific skill set?)

All in all, i am pointing out the impossible job of making a good skillwheel...

14
xixo78 The Dark
April 10, 2015 22:39:37

_I really don’t think that I have understood the both proposal,
the one of MMH7 team made and that one proposed by BeYo_OnD (THE ANCIENT).
I believe that this wheel must be UNIQUE TO EACH FACTION.
Each race must have their own skills.

14
xixo78 The Dark
April 10, 2015 22:40:03

_I strongly disagree in neutral abilities or spells that serve to more than one type of army.
Again Humans are Humans and have certain characteristics.
Necros are Necros and possess other characteristics.

14
xixo78 The Dark
April 10, 2015 22:40:42

_When will MMH7 team understand that Heroes 5, somehow brought this perspective to the game and that’s why it has such gameplay up to the present days.
In that Game the random abilities defined themselves (mostly) within the chosen faction.

6
Zabijaciel 
April 12, 2015 15:57:23

It really does feel like they just took the 5 system and twisted it into a wheel smh...

19
CenturionHavok The Wanderer
May 04, 2015 12:17:21

This is actually a really good skillwheel imo.

26
rodaff The Dark
April 09, 2015 19:32:11

Come on devs, I don't get it. People loved the H5 skillwheel, you only had to take that same model and improve it and everyone would be happy, but no! You had to make this "thing", so disappointed...

30
GalaadleHaut The Hero
April 09, 2015 22:22:28

Let me give you a hug, brother Rodaff.

26
rodaff The Dark
April 09, 2015 22:25:16

Thanks, bro.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mce9ovunqI1qf3jmj.gif

30
Sempai_Mur The Dark
April 09, 2015 22:30:36

Same here: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0nmeszmws1qibz0jo1_r1_1280.png

25
logical.dust 
April 10, 2015 02:09:38

They copy paste where they shouldnt and they invent on places where they could just copy paste ... (figuratively speaking). Really dont get whose idea was even mixing H6 skillsystem with something. H5 system required just few tweaks, perhaps another level of perks + their count increased.

11
guest-Q2C5DSj5 The Furious
April 10, 2015 06:36:07

I have the same feeling exactly. Whoever designs the framework of this game has not spent lots of time playing the game enough to understand where the gameplay values of this game come from, and continuously made wrong decision that ruins the franchise. I don't want to put name here, but it is YOU-KNOW-WHO.

22
Articun The Wanderer
April 10, 2015 15:02:46

Can they copy-paste the skillwheel of heroes V though? Or is there legal rights between the game and the new studios?

At the end though, even if they did copy it, it would be majorly unrecognized as there are more hero classes, different approach to each faction etc.

15
Jaegerkiller 
April 10, 2015 22:03:28

they don't even had to improve it... after heroes 6 i would kissed them for just bringing back the old system.
Im hardly thinking about not buying this game....Better playing H5 with hotseat again and again, there the world was just fine, even now i discover some new things in the skillwheel.
I think even if i buy H7 it will be boring after playing maybe half a year... just like H6.

14
Storm-Giant The Destroyer
April 09, 2015 19:25:26

Fixed skills per class and complete lack of pre-requisites between abilities spills doom.

This just looks like H6 system without the level requirements, urgh. H5 skillwheel was excellent, it only 'failed' because:

- Atrocious RNG.
- No visual representation in-game, leaving the player blind on to what choose to achieve any possible build.

For a Best-of Heroes I expected something better in this department, it doesn't look good at all :(

14
mammothhunter3 
April 09, 2015 19:37:49

Instead of one huge skill tree for all classes of H6 we are given a small one for every class, that nevertheless, looks similar. No replayability within one class.

At least give the player option to choose 1-3 main skills at the start to determine the class.

14
AshansBest The Guardian
April 09, 2015 23:12:58

I understand randomnes is core function and i want randomnes too but there is repleyability with this sistem

14
Djordjevic5 The Magnificient
April 10, 2015 14:00:10

In H5 you don't get the visual representation, but you can always leave the game, or write it down on a piece of paper. So I don't think that it's a big flaw

14
SpiresJRH The Mysterious
April 13, 2015 22:16:09

For me, as a long-time Heroes fan, the skill wheel in Heroes V was the ultimate fun tool for creating uniquely powerful heroes. I understood that the drive behind the Heroes VI skill tree was to simplify mechanisms and draw in new fans, but it didn't work out too well in practice. If we can't go back to the Heroes V style skill tree, then honestly I'd rather have the old skills system from Heroes II and III.

21
Avonu_de_Odihs The Mysterious
April 09, 2015 19:00:14

So basically this so called "skillwheel" is Heroes 6 system (choose whatever skill/ability you want) but instead of unlocking them on certain levels (5th, 15th and 25th) we unlock abilities by buying new skills levels.
It probably will end same as Heroes 6 - one build for all heroes in certain classes, which basically would kill any replayablility in game.
Even worse, heroes now have fixed classes - so for example I can't play Asad as Alchemist - he always will be Blademage.

21
Avonu_de_Odihs The Mysterious
April 09, 2015 19:01:44

And yes, I read about Random system and I hope it would work eventually but nevertheless the basics of skill system and heroes classes are wrong and after few games you end always choosing one hero for faction and one build for him/her.

28
Marblethrone The Chivalrous
April 09, 2015 19:30:05

"Instead of unlocking them on certain levels (5th, 15th and 25th)".

Correction: 5th, 10th and 15th.

19
Shukfir The Magnificient
April 09, 2015 19:51:31

It's a question of Balance. Heroes 6 had bad one. With good balance, chosen skills will depend on different conditions. I. e. Dark Magic could be useless against undead, Exploration could be good on big maps, Economy - on maps with lack of resources, Destiny - on maps with lots of dwellings of those creatures, whose abilities works on critical attack (basilisks, medusae) etc.

14
Aseved The Guardian
April 09, 2015 21:08:05

Not, this is not Heroes 6. Skill progress is more akin to Heroes 5 (except for ability requisities in other skills in heroes V) and previous games (that did not have abilities, just skills).
Random/Unrandom will tilt the balance to H5-type or H6-type, but will be options so we will not judge on this.

I do share certain fear regarding hero-classes being too fixed. But I see room for customization and role-playing inside the fixed start point... I just hope classes can be changed for mapmaking!.

30
GalaadleHaut The Hero
April 09, 2015 23:35:55

Heroes VI 2.0

19
SandroOmega The Mad
April 09, 2015 23:56:30

But what do you think? They don't planned to make something new! Every Heroes game Unequal! This game ONLY set of things from other games! In Heroes 5 I can create A necromancer who know magic of Light or Knight with dark magic! In heroes IV you can make Necromance The Mage of Life And Death! There I can only create A Necromancer with fixed skills! Don't Interesting! Heroes VI Warrior with some skills can destroy mage with some skills! Its Unbalance! SkillWheel here is Joke from heroes VI!

28
Chiasa The Mad
April 09, 2015 20:02:08

This + level cap = fiasco

19
viragosg The Furious
April 09, 2015 20:03:31

The recipe of failure.

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 20:03:36

Really? I thought we passed that part after the Necropolis "accident".

19
jshalky The Mighty
April 09, 2015 20:06:59

Do not like that at all. Also was somewhere posted a reason for that as I have seen it in H6 but no reason for that . Also I think it can be done much better by rapidly increasing the experience requirement

26
rodaff The Dark
April 09, 2015 20:17:57

+1
What's the point of this council if they don't even hear us?

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 20:21:56

Er, they aren't deaf, they are blind...

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 20:20:36

X_____X
_X___X_
__X_X__
___X___
__X_X__
_X___X_
X_____X

Article not approved by community.

28
Marblethrone The Chivalrous
April 09, 2015 20:21:28

Speak for yourself!

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 20:23:40

Maybe I should put an extra disclamer:
"Article not approved by majority of the community.

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 20:24:15

Give us edit button!

25
LightAvatarX The Untouchable
April 09, 2015 20:26:11

Yeah,actually I have never seen you like anything limbic made for heroes vii!
You just hate everything,am i right?
Continue like this,then..

28
Marblethrone The Chivalrous
April 09, 2015 20:26:57

That would be better.

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 20:27:59

FALSE. I like the Stronghold faction they created. Maybe few strange things, but still good.

But things like these can't be easily forgiven.

30
Sempai_Mur The Dark
April 09, 2015 20:28:21

The article IS approved since it's about something we all needed to know. The content IS NOT approved since it's about stylized H6 skilltree.

19
Shukfir The Magnificient
April 09, 2015 20:30:55

By part of community,if to be correct.

25
RobvD84 The Mad
April 09, 2015 20:33:32

No lighty that is what you see wrong. It's everything that looks and reminds us of H6 that a lot of ppl don't like. I am sure that some influences are ok, but this much is actually strange, especially since H6 has been seen as a faillure.

25
RobvD84 The Mad
April 09, 2015 21:06:38

And to me it is more Ubisoft that is doing the wrong. I think Limbic has enough talent to do things "right", but Ubi doesn't give them that much freedom. Partially because of lore (atleast that is what i think) and parially because of limited time and resources.

24
BeYo_OnD The Ancient
April 09, 2015 21:03:16

The Skillwheel is my main concern so far. It's a crucial feature of the game, and a deal breaker for many.
My thoughts about it:

• 9 Skills + Racial on a hero's Skillwheel is too few;
• around 30 Skills in total is too many;
• 5-6 Abilities per Skill are too few;
• limited internal prerequisites;
• no external prerequisites at all;
• Grandmaster Abilities have the prerequisites of just one Skill;

24
BeYo_OnD The Ancient
April 09, 2015 21:04:52

• being able to pick ALL the Abilities of one Skill is just bad;
• Skills don't have a fixed place or an otherwise recognizable pattern from one hero's Skillwheel to another;
• abilities are hardly recognizable;
• Random Skills option won't make any big difference inside this system;
• the overall feel is that of Heroes 6's simplistic choice, rather than that of complex hero development of Heroes 5.

In short, too much Heroes 6 and too little Heroes 5. I really hope changes can still be made.

12
Phoenix222011 
April 09, 2015 19:25:32

I'm trying understand your's ideas but I can't. We should upgrade skillwheel from Heroes V(add a few new skills etc.) and don't try give us system from Heroes VI which was terrible. We want random skills and we want to play heroes with different skills!

21
Najakir The Kreegan
April 09, 2015 19:29:59

I also don't understand... we have random skills and different skills...

12
Phoenix222011 
April 09, 2015 19:30:36

You not We :P

30
mErEnEfErEee The Furious
April 09, 2015 19:39:49

It's easier for them. It's as easy and simple as copying and pasting necro creatures.

28
Chiasa The Mad
April 09, 2015 20:28:03

Seeing the Autoskilling option I wonder if there will also be an Auto-town-development or maybe Auto-playing. A strategy game for dummies - you don't even need to think to win lol
Also it kinda suggests that (as usually with this kind of skill systems) there's one "right", OP way to build a hero,

21
Someborednerd The Wanderer
April 09, 2015 20:30:24

Not exactly - "recommended" does not exactly mean "right".

That being said, I actually liked that there was a right way to develop a hero, in order to get the ultimate racial perk - there were always additional two skill spots, which could be customized, depending on the hero.

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 20:30:49

Hopefully that is just for introduction for new players AND only in tutorial.

23
JotunLogi 
April 09, 2015 20:31:50

Auto-win :D

28
ramborusina 
April 09, 2015 20:33:35

The auto-skilling does scream casual-player to me which is definitely not good IMO. Most likely the town building is very optimized anyhow since they use strict town level requirements.

30
Sempai_Mur The Dark
April 09, 2015 20:34:36

Press X to win.

30
GalaadleHaut The Hero
April 09, 2015 20:34:51

@ramborusina: Hmm Capitol needed rare resources.

28
Chiasa The Mad
April 09, 2015 20:35:28

Heh, I remember I used to use cheat codes when I was 10. But in contrast to "auto-win" option that was at least fun :DD

21
Najakir The Kreegan
April 09, 2015 20:41:34

Thanksfully it's only an option.^^

24
RRick_CZ The Triumphant
April 09, 2015 20:43:15

yep...they spend their limited resources on these things and important things are missing !

24
RRick_CZ The Triumphant
April 09, 2015 20:44:05

I didn´t even notice this .. WTF ??

30
mErEnEfErEee The Furious
April 09, 2015 20:45:50

OMG! This knocks me out!

30
mErEnEfErEee The Furious
April 09, 2015 20:47:50

It implies the system is simple and gets very boring after a while. I can already feel it. I knew it was gonna suck.

25
RobvD84 The Mad
April 09, 2015 21:03:57

Haha i don't know if you can do this with other Heroes games (never tried it). But if you put 2 computer players against eachother with no other players you could basicly get the same results. You still do nothing yourself.

14
mammothhunter3 
April 09, 2015 21:18:11

I guess it was inevitable.

30
mErEnEfErEee The Furious
April 09, 2015 19:55:18

They don't seem to feel the spirit of the game. So how are they supposed to make it good? Only those who can feel the spirit can actually do it right. I am pissed.

25
logical.dust 
April 09, 2015 19:56:47

Wise words. Pity that the head of the party has barely any experience with playing heroes.

12
Landias64 The Mad
April 09, 2015 19:59:50

I think they do feel this spirit. Just keep in mind that when you're staring at something you end up not being able to see it anymore.
Overall I think they have done a good work. We can just hope they have enough time and resource to look at the comments, identify the relevant ones and are able to make the change not to make a good job but a terrific one.

23
JotunLogi 
April 09, 2015 20:04:00

Game is good, there are plenty nice things well made and good ideas implemented.
THeey have just messed upt with specialization and levels...
the problem is that those give game character and make it interesting in laategame...
They must change it, hope they will (I think that they will notice overhelming disappointment)

28
ramborusina 
April 09, 2015 19:31:10

The skill-wheel still look very simplified compared to h5, as in no specific requirements from other skills/racials. Frankly it looks like skill-wheel for dummies, but maybe it's more complex than it seems(or work in progress relates to this). I hope the grand-master abilities will be as good/interesting as in h5.

Also question: so is native terrain like governing ability as it seems to be? And how are the governing abilities split across the wheel if so(I figured they would be in diplomacy.)

30
Sempai_Mur The Dark
April 09, 2015 19:33:01

You steal my words, man ;)

16
RagnarLodbrok_1 The Faithful
April 09, 2015 20:06:37

@ramborusina: totally agree with you! +1

@Sempai_Mur: stop clowning around here :( -10

9
SPANISHDUVI The Mighty
April 09, 2015 23:29:17

system HV returns please!!!!!!!

9
SPANISHDUVI The Mighty
April 09, 2015 23:31:39

it was so easy as to improve the system of H5, and what they have done is to continue with part of the defeat of the H6. that sad. today I am going to sleep badly....

29
Cleglaw The Councilor
April 10, 2015 01:34:12

go to the time machine.

28
Chiasa The Mad
April 09, 2015 19:49:50

So it's a H6 system forced into a skillwheel... I'm not even surprised
Recreating H5 skillwheel with some improvements would be too complicated and time consuming I suppose , just like the initiative system, diverse creature abilities, unique hero specializations and not shitty townscreens :f
Also there's "he" and "his" everywhere in the article
Anyway, http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/707/nothing-to-do-here-template.jpg.scaled500.jpg

30
mErEnEfErEee The Furious
April 09, 2015 19:52:09

Just as copying and pasting creature designs from H6.

24
RRick_CZ The Triumphant
April 09, 2015 19:55:36

you be like : http://new1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/There+are+a+lot+of+questions+that+need+to+be+_9e26eb1436ff1711bb2ff567d85d2c27.jpg

28
Chiasa The Mad
April 09, 2015 20:07:08

@RRick
Hehe, yeah but a bit more butthurt, like:
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a5/a577466654dead972f0a619a2f0cd37504a3d1496be5f31b12ec5a1c33022789.jpg

25
RobvD84 The Mad
April 09, 2015 20:41:44

Well they have to keep up the schedule...

19
viragosg The Furious
April 09, 2015 19:33:20

#GIVE US BETTER SKILL SYSTEM
#GUBSS

30
GalaadleHaut The Hero
April 09, 2015 19:38:21

This is incorrect Sligneris.
_
Erwan le Breton said himself gameplay related criticism was accepted.
_
Unlike the creative vision (lore) one.

19
viragosg The Furious
April 09, 2015 19:40:07

I 'm really glad about that too. But you can't call this random skills. I 'm giving feedback to devs. even if it is complaining or anithing else.

21
Someborednerd The Wanderer
April 09, 2015 19:44:12

Don't worry Viragogs, I understand you well. I'm also a bit worried about the skill system.

25
logical.dust 
April 09, 2015 19:46:05

Sure ... it is hard to accept that something he was making last 5 years have to be scrapped. Skillwheel is matter of few months. His creative vision is completely out of place .. he never even played previous games and yet he thinks that his vision is superior to what others "peasants" think. He will bring this franchise into its doom.

30
GalaadleHaut The Hero
April 09, 2015 19:49:08

@Sligneris: Well I never heard you said that about Ashan while it is clearly x100 more the case than the skill system. I believe it is not too late for that to get better, considering they still have to implement random.
_
Why do I even bother with you.

19
viragosg The Furious
April 09, 2015 19:50:53

Maybe if they have time to redesign some necro unit they redesign it if we fight for it hard enough.

21
Someborednerd The Wanderer
April 09, 2015 19:51:09

Galaad, I want Ashan to improve, but I don't want it to be scraped and will never do. You don't need to 'bother with me' in that regard, really.

21
Someborednerd The Wanderer
April 09, 2015 19:53:16

viragosg, not sure - coming up with a design seems easier than coming up with a full skill system.

I won't hold you back in that regard though.

25
logical.dust 
April 09, 2015 19:55:20

I have seen video where he expain why was ashan created - they didnt played previous games and they didnt understand previous universe, so they make new one. Also despite the fact that heroes was most important game of all the others, ashan looks nothing like original world. If he would play H3 then it wouldnt be the case. If he is making it on purpose diferently than he is just being as.hole. Necro buddhist omg ... that is just proof of misunderstanding of necro and buddhist at same time.

19
LichRotkiv The Councilor
April 09, 2015 18:52:56

This is big, very big mistake you are doing with Skillwheel, not random at all in both cases. And my opinion is that this is crucial for this game. Best Skeelwheel was that in H5, this in nothing.

19
LichRotkiv The Councilor
April 09, 2015 18:54:13

So I get level, and get a skill point that I can distribute where ever I want? What is fun in that?

30
EnergyW The Hack
April 09, 2015 18:54:54

Didn't they promise a random skill system? Isn't this just a preview of non-random one (which they seem to favor so much about)?

12
slimp1990 The Magical
April 09, 2015 18:58:53

As i understand there will be an option which would make skillwheel work in the same way as H5.

25
logical.dust 
April 09, 2015 19:32:52

I still do not understand why are you desperately trying to make this game to something else. This goes to ashan lore and also to the skillsystem mechanics. While I do like visual presentation, this isnt the way how heroes game should be played. Your creative vision is contradiction to true heroes of might and magic experience. You got all the feedback, you duped it down the toilet.

19
viragosg The Furious
April 09, 2015 19:36:08

Maybe a bit hard but totally correct. That 's sad, sad, and sad. :-(

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